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In Your Opinion: Whats more Important Boons v Banes
Do you personally weigh Boons and Banes equally. Are you more likely to use a unit with bad Bane vs a bad Boon?
In my experience as long as the Bane is optimal, Im willing to build the unit. On the otherhand, even if the Boon is optimal, if the Bane is bad I'll fodder/merge the unit
Answers
I've actually learned the hard way to do exactly what you just said. I've built some units with bad banes that actually make it much harder to use the unit.
So for me nowadays, banes are far more important than boons. A bad boon won't hurt, it will just not help. A bad bane will wreck the unit for good.
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I'm of the opinion that banes which really wreck the unit are rare. Usually it's if the unit has a pretty marginal stat to begin with, and often even in those cases the unit isn't completely dead. You might need to build differently with certain banes, but a super-unit will still be extremely strong.
There's not really any bane that can stop M.Grima from being a monster. Some IVs just die more easily than others. For example, -def I don't like for an enemy phase build except maybe warding breath + glimmer. Getting hit twice on 32 def and probably taking a special will very often get you killed. But if using bold fighter, you choose who you take those two hits from, and they're probably from different opponents so you're probably not getting hit with a special.
The marginal cases are stuff like -atk on Felicia, Caeda, or Eirika. Felicia will lose most of her offensive potential, but she can still completely obliterate most mages on a glacies activation. Caeda will have significant issues with her atk, but when flier buffs are as strong as they are and def ploy is available as a seal, she can still desperation moonbow her way through some armours. She'll have a much harder time without effective damage, though. Eirika can still get her atk into the 50s with the double-dipping tactics trick (have her receive the tactic directly and then receive it a second time through an ally using Sieglinde+eff), and if she does it with her other stats too then her defenses are in the 40s.
Now, if you don't know how to work with an awkward IV, then a bad bane can really throw for you a loop, yes. There's no denying that some IVs are a lot more straightforward or easy to work with than others.
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You are right, the cases are rare. The problem lies within me XD
For example, I have no idea how to build a - SPD SY! Tiki that I got in my alt. But I knew immediately how I wanted to build a +SPD one in my main.
I did build a +RES - ATK Hardin with the recommended build in the wiki. He's a total monster and I actually like the mixed bulk a lot. I would totally appreciate a boost in power with maybe a speed bane instead, but he's totally usable.
I currently have an issue with B! Hector because even though I got extremely lucky and got 4 copies of him so far. His IVs have been kind of strange (+DEF - RES, +RES - DEF, +HP - DEF, +HP - DEF) so I don't know which one to actually use.
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I don't look at boons and banes so much as what numbers I'm left with after it's done.
Ex: L.Ryoma +atk -spd has 37/36 offensive stats. For me that's very playable. The only reason I haven't built my L.Ryoma (+HP -spd) is because I've been conserving feathers for merge projects. Kind of wanting to pull a better one before I finish my fourth merge so that I can work with a copy without spd bane. He's a really good unit.
Ex: Ryoma +atk -def. My only Ryoma. We're talking glass cannon defenses now; he will take one hit and no more. I'm going for a OHKO vantage build with brazen atk/def.
Ex: H.Henry and LA Lyn +def -atk. I have both. Most people wouldn't say "that's a good boon bad bane or vice versa; that's just crap" but I like the def boon with owl tome +def. Very tanky. Henry I made into an anti-B.Lyn / Reinhardt and he rarely takes more than 1 damage from either of them except on a moonbow, so he's pretty good at maintaining QR2. I'm considering going CC + vengeful iceberg. Should be able to get at least 20 damage off the iceberg. Won't be enough if their res is good, but most melee opponents don't have good res and a lot of mages don't have that much HP. The main reason I haven't built LA Lyn is because I've been thinking of foddering the atk/spd bond or the armour march.
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Good question. I personally judge a unit based on what stats they can maximize on, and what builds I can do in tandem.
For a fast sweeper, I would probably hesitate to build a -Spd one in favor of another who is -Def but has neutral offensive stats. For a tankier unit, I would make an exception if their defensive stats are exceptional and if their Atk is already high enough or they can abuse a specific special to make up for it.
Regarding the builds, if I'm going for something like a Brazen or Wrath, I would prefer an HP bane. If an armored unit is -Spd, I'll just ignore it and use Bold/Vengeful Fighter. If a weapon has a threshold like Vassal's Blade, I would probably be bothered by a -Spd Karla.
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i'd say the only bad bad bane is spd - if something is gonna counter what you got then better it doesn't counter it twice as hard. true that atk is universally useful whereas hp/def/res are (other than certain circumstances) half as valuable but unless you have some armour unit with very poor base spd then i'd keep that stat up pve and pvp.
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I think the problem is that people pay way too much attention to the IVs the unit has instead of the actual stats. There really shouldn't be any reason why someone thinks a unit is trash because they have an attack bane, but still have over 50 attack with just their weapon equipped.
"Oh my god, this unit has an attack bane, they're worthless."
This is the mindset that, for whatever reason, plagues the community, and I cannot, for the life of me, understand why. I just wish people actually looked at the stats themselves. And even if the stat isn't as high as you'd want it to be, we have three other units that have flexible C slots. Hones, Fortifies, Drives, Spurs, they all exist to help our units, yet it seems like people just flat out ignore their existence when it comes to units with "less than optimal" IVs.
I can probably count on one hand the amount of units that, in my opinion, are 'ruined' by bad IVs: Odin and Olwen.
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You don't think Odin -spd can make it with some kind of Henry-ish owl tome all-in glacies?
Olwen -spd would be very sour, but with spd+3 seal, receiving hone cavalry and, if you want to be extreme, darting blow, I think she's still in business. Her atk was always an issue; +24 on Blarblade was always an answer.
I think why so many people are saying bad boon with passable bane is ok while bad bane is no good with almost no exception has to do with loss aversion (psychology concept). The concept basically states that human nature suffers more from a loss than appreciating an equivalent gain. It's this attitude that causes people, for example, to decline a fair coin toss given 2:1 odds (i.e. win twice as much as you would have to lose on an unfavourable outcome). In FEH it's this twisted idea that they got the unit neutral and then lost 3 or 4 points in some stat, when in fact they never had those 3 or 4 stat points ever. I suspect it's that we tend to think "oh yay I got ___ unit" and immediately think they have all the maximal potential over which people hype the unit, and then the bane is disadvantageous and somehow the unit magically loses 100% of the matchups it previously won. It's a pathological, execrable obsession over empty imaginings and refusal to appreciate what we actually get for how much it can actually do.
Some of the things people do to "patch" the loss are so ridiculous they make me mad, like one time someone said "I had -atk +res so I gave her L&D1 and now she has +spd -def" and I think it was B.Ninian too. It's beyond ludicrous how desperate people are to avoid "bad" banes. You didn't change her IVs, you just wasted a L&D fodder to deceive yourself while throwing away an advantage on a unit that probably liked her extra tanking potential. "Good" banes aren't even necessarily that good - I have S.Linde +spd -def and I have to figure out how to avoid getting OHKO'd against distant counter or any bow or dagger before desperation activates because she has 47 bulk with a non-def weapon refine.
The stupidest part, I find, is: if you're so averse to bad banes, why don't you just give up on summoning 5* exclusives except for fodder and stick to the 3*/4* pool? You can't handle bad banes? Don't summon! You're going to get your share of them sooner or later. Do you eat super-spicy food if you can't take the heat? Do you jump in the deep end of the pool if you can't swim? Do you enter a fenced-off construction zone without safety equipment and either knowledge of what to look for or someone to guide you? Why then do you hunt for 5* units to use expecting everything to just fall into place, drop 50 orbs, get a pleasant IV?
And it doesn't help that the analysis on some of the character pages on this site is narrower than the mail slot on my door. "Delthea's physical bulk is horrible" well yes she'll die if you don't invest in it, but if you get her +def, you have...17 is it? and fury is 3 more; if you buff a blade tome enough -atk won't matter and she'll actually survive a counterattack to get her into desperation. Now you can actually bait some bows and daggers at the start of a battle - it wouldn't be any different from initiating on them yourself except you don't need to extend as much so your position is more compact and it's even easier to keep the blade tome buffed.
Plus I think there's a part of it that just comes from plain incompetence. Some units really will struggle a lot with a bad bane if you don't adjust the build, sometimes quite dramatically. -atk H.Henry just can't hit hard enough if he doesn't build correctly and/or have the right buffs.
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For Odin, I find an attack bane to be a very unfavorable bane. Sure, a speed bane is bad, but an attack bane puts him at 19 attack. I guess the 'ruined IVs' part is mostly an incorrect assessment. I can't really say that he's completely ruined since I've refused to try and use it because the attack stat is so ungodly low, same with Olwen. Although in her case she has the help of being able to Quad units, or run a Bladetome unit and have Hone + Fortify Cavalry to help her, and like some people have pointed out to me (one person a few months back when I first started my Odin merge project) that he can run an Owltome set to make use of his bulk. So I take back that bit on them being ruined. Not that great, but not unusable.
I admit that I don't know much about psychology, but the description you gave seems to be pretty spot on on how people seem to automatically assume that a unit lost out on anything and everything they ever had just because they have a less-than-optimal IV set.
On the point of pulling for units, I truly don't understand this either. If you're so worried about a 5* exclusive having such bad IVs, then why go out of your way to pull for them in the first place? I can understand if they are on of your favorite characters, but at that point a "bad IV set" shouldn't stop you from using the unit you spent your money/orbs for. I know if Owain ever showed up and I pulled one that had less than optimal stats, I'd still use him (as long as his stats aren't something ludicrous like 3 defense and 5 resistance or something, but they'd never do that...).
The pages this site has on certainly aren't the best in terms of trying to find different pathways to take for some units, or at least put some input on why taking "the worst bane" could somehow be beneficial. Some units have pages where the descriptions on their IVs makes it seem like they'd rather have neutral stats over having an actual boon and bane, so they'll take the least-offending stat as an optimal bane instead of just saying that a neutral IV set may be the most, or at least one of the most, beneficial IV sets for the unit (in their opinion anyway).
I may have to hit up a battle simulator to see just how well a -Atk Odin/Olwen can perform before I can legitimately say, with utmost confidence, that I feel those IV sets are... unworkable. xD
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So we had different ideas. I thought, his atk is so low I wouldn't expect dropping it to change too much - he's going to need a ton of visible buffs on a blade tome maybe plus flashing blade moonbow, or he's going to have to just bomb Henry-style. It's interesting with low-atk characters, actually. Lu Bu recommended -atk on Selena arguing that her res distinguishes her from Ayra (otherwise she's just outclassed), and since we're only dealing with something like 43 atk even with the superboon I tend to agree with him. She can become tanky enough to sit around forever accumulating as many special charges as she wants. I'm not sure if Odin would be able to pull off such a thing, but I think he has a good try. But I think I would prefer to keep his atk, as you also seem to prefer.
In any case, any IV is workable if the opponent's def or res is low enough XD just means you might be restricted to not many targets, which is fine for AA.
Now if Owain showed up with 5 res, we're getting 162 BST units nowadays so we're looking at an average of about 39 each atk, spd, def, and HP, which I think is too good not to use. And if he has 3 def 5 res his offensive spread will have to be at least well into the 40s for him not to have 80HP.
There are a number of issues with the IV guides on this site, among which is the failure to consider potential benefits of unconventional boons or banes. One other one in my mind is that there's not too much consideration for how some units change character with different IVs. +atk -spd Zelgius needs to play very differently from +spd -res Zelgius. An honest +spd Sheena (i.e. actually go for double-blocking, not just for arena points) needs to set up very differently from -spd. -spd on flying Tiki more or less ties her down to enemy phase, and she can get extremely tanky for a flier with +def, while +spd -def might even like desperation. -atk Selena is all-in on special; +atk can do other stuff if she gets buffed and might even turn into a conventional duelist. -res on B.Ephraim is more or less giving up on his res and going for a Hector-ish statline; +res suggests he wants to go for mixed bulk. We could sit around listing examples.
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If I had to choose between always having a good/acceptable boon and a potentially bad bane or always having a good/acceptable bane and a potentially good boon, I'd prefer the latter. It's a lot easier to work with and less punishing to have an acceptable bane than a bad one. Boons usually can't hurt a unit, banes can frequently.
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