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Well. That's upsetting.

I *did* plan on pulling for F!Morgan, but if the stats on her pages are accurate, then she has King Ass for Defense, and I really don’t think I want her any more. Her neutral DEF is as bad as -DEF Elise. I think I’ll pull for M!Morgan instead. Shame, since I like F!Morgan a lot better, and wanted her for my Flier team.

And before you say that she’s an antimage, I already have enough of those. Don’t need another.

Asked by TheEternalShade9 months 3 weeks ago

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And if you want to know why her DEF matters to me, take a look at some of my best/favorite units and see if you can identify the running theme.

Um... I see a glass cannon Corrin and Bridelia (with Poison Strike? If you use her right, her enemies will be dead), a Rhajat running Close Defense without Close Counter, an Effie with an offensive build but Res +3 in A-slot (and as a seal), a tanky Clair, and an unbuilt Flyzura. I don't get it.

Every one of them has balanced DEF/RES except for Clair, whose stats are thrown off by her current merge level. I can't stand units who have gaping holes in their defenses. Which is why I can't use F!Morgan. I *could* balance hers out, but I'd need +DEF/-RES, Blarwolf (DEF), and Fortress DEF, as well as a DEF+3 seal. Essentially making her useless, anyways. I'd rather have M!Morgan, who I can balance with a simple +ATK/-RES.

So it's an OCD thing? I get it now. I still don't understand a couple things though, like why Bridelia has Poison Strike and Rhajat Close Defense. Also, sometimes the point of some units is to have min-maxed stats.

Feels like it sometimes, but it's not. I *can* use units with unbalanced defenses (Black Knight and Michaelis, for example). I just don't like it.

Cordelia has Poison Strike to chip away at tanks she can’t damage enough while she charges Luna, and Rhajat has Close Defense so she isn’t killed when she can’t counter.

I mean, I get Bridelia, but shouldn't you be using Rhajat as a nuke and actively trying to get her out of range afterwards? Though her defenses are pretty solid.

She's +HP/-ATK, as I recall, so I decided to optimize on her expanded health pool and use her as a tanky nuke. I haven't had the chance to pull a more offensive one. If I do, Obviously I'll change up her build. But for now, her natural stats lead her to be a bit bulkier, so I opt for a build that let's her fill a more mixed role. For now.

Well, as long as she works for your playstyle, there's no problem involved. It was just an unconventional build.

My bridelia also has a poison strike / firesweep build. She kills most infantry without it, but it really helps her with armored distant counter units. Add Luna and she is a tank destroyer.

The point of F!Morgan was that she's the first non-seasonal flying mage which is a HUGE plus for Flier Emblem teams considering, again, the only flying mage units are seasonal aside from her.

Not to mention, if memory serves right, there are more flying units with good defense then there are with good resistance.

And comparing F!Morgan to anyone that's not a flying mage is not gonna wield the best results on "Should I pull for her?"

I'm aware that she's the only non-limited flier mage. Great for flier teams that don't have one, yes, but that doesn't mean her DEF stat isn't horrifyingly bad. She can still have high RES without having no defense at all. Especially if her tome grants her defensive boosts.

And you miss the point of the image. I didn’t say I was comparing them. The point is that all the best units I have and use have balanced DEF/RES stats, as I hate having holes in my unit’s survivability. F!Morgan’s DEF is so bad that I’d have to use every possible DEF boost to make her NOT die to every melee unit that comes her way. And that’s just not worth the effort to me. Even if I didn't have S!Camilla (whose role Morgan would be taking).

Her defense stat is horrible because they wanted to make her more specialized, and your image didn't really make much sense in my opinion.

"The point is that all the best units I have and use have balanced DEF/RES stats, as I hate having holes in my unit’s survivability. "

Your Corrin has extremely bad defense AND resistance...

Your Bridelia has extremely bad defense AND resistance...

So what exactly what were you trying to prove in that picture? Your Corrin is an extreme melee glass cannon and you have a Bridelia..

So, again, what exactly are you trying to show in that picture?

The poin isn't that they're all tanky, the point is that their defenses are balanced. Kamui and Cordelia have bad defenses by design because I optimzed them for offensive roles, but when they DO defend, they don't get nuked by magic because their RES is 20 points lower than their DEF. They don't take more from one or the other, and are specialized to avoid it. Cordelia had Firesweep (and is always paired with a dancer, though that's an in-use thing, not a stat thing), and Kamui uses Desperation for quicker kills without followups. Well, did when I still actively used him).

To put Morgan in a position where she can defend (since her tome grants Distant Defense, she's intended to defend even a little), I'd have to use every slot possible to boost her DEF, and that's just not worth it when M!Morgan can get the same results with just +ATK/-RES.

I mean... sure? If you'd rather "not" use a unit because their defense isn't the exact same as their resistance then fine. I don't get it, but sure. It's your life, so live it the way you want to, lol.

So, you'd rather Corrin and Cordelia will get killed by anything with half-decent attack? They are not immune to doubles. Isn't it better to have them survive hits from at least one kind of unit instead of actively attempting to mold their stats? For example, you Effie. Instead of running two res +3s, why not run Death Blow and Attack +3 instead so she can kill and fulfill her given role better?

I don't use either of them actively anymore, honestly. They're still favorites of mine, but they *have* been benched. For now, anyways. Who's to say what could come up later?

As for Effie, I run the two RES+3s to balance her defenses and make her as resistant to magic as she is to physical. If her Brave Lance ever becomes forgable, BL (RES) and ATK/RES+2 A-Slot would free up her seal. But that’s if it becomes forgable. Besides, I have Bold Fighter on her. Even as she is, I’ve yet to see anything short of a Green Tank that can survive a quad from Bold Ignis Effie.

But you've built her to fill two conflicting roles. You've built her like a mixed tank without any Distant Counter (she's like a worse Hardin) and as an offensive unit. She does not need the extra resistance. You should have other armor units (W!Tharja, LA!Lyn) with enough resistance to tank hits from mages. She should be fully built to one of her two possible roles: mixed tank (Hardin does this better now) or offensive BL nuker. You've sacrificed some utility and viability to make her equally tanky on both ends of the spectrum.

They don't really conflict that much. Effie's specialized to fun in my Armor team, where I run two Armored Marches and Sheena runs Fortify Armor, putting Effie near 40 each. Armored March gives her power to initiate, where Fortify allows her to survive the enemy team's attack and follow-up her next turn with minimal, oftentimes if any, damage. Now my Sheena. SHE is my enemy phase unit with DC. Oftentimes, when possible, I start Effie behind Sheena and next to A.March while Sheena baits, then Effie initiates the next turn for the kill, while resisting enemy followups after that.

So, you have Sheena to be an enemy phase monster, so Effie should be more offense oriented. Even without the +6 res, she is not frail, and will not be killed on enemy phase. Every unit has a role, and you're trying to make your Effie fulfill multiple roles when she doesn't need to. Reposition or something will make it so Effie doesn't need to take hits from mages.
On a sidenote, it is nice to see someone else who runs two Armor Marches.

Sheena's a bait unit, not an enemy phase damage. She has DC, yes, but she also has Wary Fighter to minimize damage. She lures them in chipping at them slightly, when Effie follows up and fulfills both my uses for her just fine. She quads, she kills, and she takes basically nothing with no regards to who's attacking her. She’s quadding, she doesn’t need the extra damage as it is, since she already has 49 ATK. Again, if her lance becomes forgable, I can give her an ATK-boosting seal with ATK/RES+2 as her A. Her lance is not yet forgable, however, so I’d rather ensure she has the extra survivability than give her more ATK when her attacks are already overkill.

‘Course I run two. Gotta have some kind of backup if you have to split your team, and the team doesn't start clustered up. :)

Also, here's my favorite unit. She has identical defense and resistance, but it doesn't really matter, because she will kill most units anyways. Morgan (F)'s defense does not matter because she should not be built to capitalize on her defense, and should never be taking hits from melee units.

Aye. It's not the unit she initiates that she has to worry about, it's the unit's team I have her defend against.

"Should never" is not the same as "will never." Effie shouldn't be tanking magic, but do you know how often she ends up doing it anyways? One melee unit gets close to Morgan, and she's in pieces all over the ground. Not acceptable, as she would be taking over for my S!Camilla, who easily tanks bows. Without the DEF to back up the use of Iote's Shield, Morgan would only be a waste of a unit in basically any of my teams.

Swap. Reposition. Pivot. Make it so that your nuke or focused tank can't get hit by the types of units they shouldn't be. Morgan shouldn't be advancing for a kill in the first place. She should be used as an enemy phase baiter, or to get frailer units out of range of enemies, like Firesweep fliers or S!Corrin.

I use all of those, but all it takes is one slipup. One Wings Of Mercy you missed (this happens to me often), or overestimating her ability to bait and counter. Basically, everything you listed, my Camilla does better. She baits better than Morgan, counters harder, survives longer. Still not seeing any reason to waste my time on a unit that can die after a single miscalculation when I have a unit that doesn't have that problem (who I initially intended Morgan to replace, until I saw her DEF.)

Camilla has 22 res and 33 defense. Not superb as a tank. 22 res is almost as much of a detriment as 16 defense. Myrrh is better.
At least Morgan is built like a traditional pegasus rider. Do you not use wyverns or pegasi in actual FE games because they have low res and defense respectively? No. You play to their strengths, just like Morgan should be played in a way complementing her strengths while her teammates cover her weaknesses.

I think you're wasting your time, lol. You can't really try to change someone's mind if it's their play style to only use units that have "perfect balance" defense and resistance. If that's how they play, then fine.

They'll just miss out on a lot of the super good (art wise and stat wise) units out there. :P

I guess you're right.
More RNG blessings for the rest of us, right? :)
I just could not, for the life of me, understand why he needed that balance.

This is the role Morgan would be expected to replace. If she had even a half-respectable DEF stat, then her tome and an Iote's Shield seal would do it. However, she would not be able to fill that role. With my flier buffs, her RES is just enough to barely survive baiting green mages. Only caveat is that, by my own design in TA, she can't tank red, which is what my Clair does. However, being unable to take a hit from red is a significant improvement over being unable to take a hit from swords, axes, lances, shuriken, and bows. If I want an antimage, I'll use Felicia. Or Neko!Sakura. 　Or Delthea. Or Sonya.

I have no need for a unit that fill a role worse than the unit she’d be replacing. Doesn’t matter how much I prefer F!Morgan to M!Morgan, F!Morgan is still useless to me with her DEF barely making the double-digits.

Camilla is a barely serviceable flying tank in the first place. You know who does her job better? Myrrh. Tana. Michalis. All better tanks for flier emblem. with powerful unique weapons. Want to see how good Michalis can be? Look at TG15's. Unsure about Myrrh? Slap DC, QR, and Iote's on her and watch her go. Vidolfinir literally screams "Physical tank!" There's a reason Spring Camilla isn't top tier anymore, and I can almost certainly assure you Female Morgan will be.

I have and use Michalis and have a shit roll for Myrrh. Don't have Tana to begin with. That said, my Camilla actually has the stats to...you know. Survive. Even physical hits. But, most especially, bows. I don't give a damn if Morgan can tank magic. I have about fifteen other units that can, least of all Camilla, who can tank more than that. With Morgan's groundbreaking DEF of 16, she is all of useless to me. Can't tank bows, can't tank any kind of melee. Can only tank one fraction of what the range tank I have now can. Still useless to me. I don't care what some site says is "top tier." I'm not a rookie that needs to rely on something so trivial. I care about what I can use, or what I can make usable. And a unit that's killed by every physical unit in ten square miles doesn't cut it.

A unit that can be killed by any physical unit? Such as, I don't know, your Male Corrin and Bridelia? Who not only die to any physical damage, but any magical damage as well?
Like I said, Camilla is not a superb tank. Morgan will tank mages far better, and a dedicated physical tank, like the ones I previously listed, will do a better job at tanking bow units. You are hampering your units by wanting them have a stagnant statline. The best units in this game are those with min-maxed statlines, who excel at one role, and aren't supposed to be great at other roles. You are simply evaluating and using your units wrong. I don't know how else to put it.

You mean the units I already said I have stopped using since they stopped being able to avoid any and all followups and enemy initiations?

I never said that Camilla was a superb tank, I said she does her job of baiting and countering ranged units INCLUDING BOWS better than this Morganm would. Why would a take a unit that can successfully bait all ranged units, and most melee units to boot, and replace her with a unit that can bait magic only? I'm effectively cutting my unit's effectiveness by two-thirds, if not more. Real smart team planning, make your unit LESS able to survive.

The funny thing about those "best units in the games" is that there's easily absolutely annihilated by the units you claim I've been "hampering." And the best part is that their other min-maxed allies can't do shit to mine, either.

You know what? I'm going to let this drop. While I strongly advocate specialist units over generalists, where a unit excels at one job rather than is just meh at everything, I can see that I won't change your mind. At the end of the day, it's how you want to play, not me. So, if it works for you, then I can see no reason to continue arguing.

I get how you feel I was expecting a balance def/res states like her parent or her male counterparts

Exactly. Like...even if they weren't completely balanced, I just can't use a unit whose DEF is almost 20 whole points lower than her RES. With a DEF like that, you'd be hard-pressed to find a melee unit that can't obliterate her, especially in the current meta with units like Ayra and the new Chrom, who hit like trains to begin with.

*shrugs* in my opinion, if there’s going to be a dragon mounted Mage with weak defense, so be it. She’s not built to combat melee users, and in any case, she needs the huge res for her Atk Ploy skill. Which is another thing i’ll point out. She has that Ploy on her. Now, I didn’t check her stats yet, but I would definitely prefer her to have a larger res than balances defenses so that the Ploy can activate even against hugely Res mages.

I think she’s still worth going for, given the tome and skills she has. :/ imo

Having high RES isn't the problem, having 16 DEF at neutral is the problem. Again, if the stats on her page are accurate. With DEF like that, virtually any melee unit is going to shit on her. I'd rather go for M!Morgan, who can have 23 DEF/RES and 50 ATK with just +ATK/-RES, buffing his own ATK/SPD by 5 and debuffing enemies by 5 every time he attacks. Much more useful than hoping on a Ploy to keep a middling nuke from one-shotting.

Im also upset,IS should dump whoever designed her,Fmorgan deserved better than this.She has no unique skill,no prf,shitty spread.No really screw you IS.Morgan deserved better.

What gets me is that M!Morgan's spread is significantly tighter, much easier to work with, and lends to being much harder to f*ck up with any melee weapon. I mean...Morgan's Tome is amazing, but she only has the RES to justify it. I saw her Tome, I was hoping to give her Close DEF and Iote's Shield. But 16 DEF isn't even close to enough for that to be viable.

This is the same disappointment I felt when I saw Grimas res.

Well...Grima's RES isn't nearly as bad. Basically any RES-boosting item fixes it. I gave him Fortress RES, and now he's rocking 39 apiece. But Morgan's 16 DEF is just...ouch.