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Logic?

Sorry for the ranty nature of this post.

Through the times on this FEH forum, I have seen so many people use the reasoning: "it's ok that X has a speed bane. Their prf weapon gives them +3 spd, so it offsets/repairs the speed bane."

(No, I'm not talking only about the cases of Tana).

How does it repair anything when said hero has been designed with their weapon in mind? Speed bane will always be a speed bane (or any other bane ofc), so your stat will always be lower, because the neutral speed version also has access to that weapon. I don't even know why this bothers me, but I just don't see any logic in using the reasoning laid out in quotations.

Asked by Guts6 months ago

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I agree. It also bugs me when people say you can "fix" a bane by giving them "x + 3" seal to mitigate it. Giving up a seal slot to fix a bane is pretty much selling yourself short of an entire skill slot...

I don't have a problem with seals, because it's sort of their point to either extend your strengths or offset your weaknesses, so the "repair" reasoning there makes sense even though you are prioritizing a raw stat upgrade over something like heavy blade or whatever.

I'm assuming you're talking about Myrrh, or at least she's one of the ones you're talking about for this question?

It's mostly said as a way for people to not worry so much about the bane when said bane isn't that much of an issue. If Myrrh has an attack bane, her Greath Breath can be considered because it gives her an extra 3 attack, thus rendering the whole "oh no, my unit's terrible!" pointless in many people's eyes.

Yes, the stat will always be lower than what it COULD be (because it's still a bane) but it's not an issue.

This is pretty much my thoughts. Getting certain units isn't always easy, so sometimes you need a way to be okay with getting a unit that doesn't have the best boon/bane and a weapon that gives a certain stat can be seen as a patch for it.

Just like if other better seals are in use, simply using a stat seal can "bandage" a bane a bit to at least make said bane neutral.

It could also apply to Myrrh since she also gets a raw stat upgrade. I get that it's mostly used to comfort people when they get the undesired bane, but it can't "repair" it.

"Repair" is mostly used as a filler word. The only way to truly "repair" a bane is to give a seal since... well that's what seals are there for, but with weapons having their own stat increases (Grants 'x' +3) is gives people a bit more leeway as far as what they can do with their build.

Yeah, seal is what can sort of repair the bane. I have this "issue" with Micaiah, who's +spd -res and even though her weapon gives her 3 resistance, she will not be able to reach the same amount of res tanking or ploying as a neutral res Micaiah, so I'm using a res seal on her to actually offset it.

It’s the same sort of logic that leads people to recommend res banes for distant counter builds. I cringe internally every time I see it.

Recommend res banes for Distant Counter builds....

Hmm...

I mean, I'd recommend a Distant Counter build if the unit has high resistance with said res bane, but I don't think I'd recommend a res bane for said build.

That's a bit odd... I hope I've never done that. xD

That's also an interesting topic, but I'd say that it really depends from hero to hero.
A hero like Sigurd does great as a distant counter tank with a res bane thanks to his weapon's giving him a % based dmg reduction. Other heroes like Soleil or Ayra also do best with a res bane because it only slightly weakens their one matchup while keeping the other stats at their peak, because they might have other important stats (like speed so that they don't get doubled by those mages and can kill them upon retaliation).
Then there are heroes like Dorcas who really benefit even from a res boon in their DC builds. So in the end it really depends on the specific hero in question.

It’s based around the prevailing idea that hp + def/res = bulk. Which is only really true if that unit only ever sees one round of combat. If that unit is going to be seeing multiple rounds of combat though the ability to mitigate damage is far more important than ability to soak it, which tends to make hp a better bane in most cases.

If you’re going to run a res bane on a DC build my opinion is that you need a gimmick like Sigurd’s to render the effect minimal.

That all said it’s only my opinion. I just don’t like the idea of “effective hp”.

The logic of recommending seals to patch banes often is rooted in the fact that people are often stuck with one nature, so there's no use in saying "oh a speed boon would be better." Like duh of course it is but literally everyone gets stuck with a unit with non-ideal IV's and part of the game is fixing that or working around it.

Obviously nobody's coming up here advocating to run "non-ideal" banes but some people are either unlucky or don't have the money to spend on pulling for better IV's. Depending on the character it's perfectly sound logic to suggest "patching" banes.

Like I really don't know what you expect people to say instead. I'd love for you to point out specifically a case where you think some bad advice was given, as that's easier to rationalize than some abstract complaint.

I'll also add that in cases like Tana it's not necessarily a given that she'll be running her native tome, as she could also run a Raurblade set. So pointing out that a speed bane Tana with Idunn's Fruit has the same speed as a neutral Tana with Raurblade isn't a ridiculous thing to point out

You are right about sacred seals being there to patch up certain banes, so I'm with you on that one, but you are kind of complaining about a different topic.

We all get our share of bad IVs and as non-spenders, we have to deal with it somehow, so that's also understandable.

My topic though is purely about prf weapons giving their user a raw stat increase, where by receiving a bad bane, you can't really say that their weapon's raw stats upgrade already patches it up to a neutral value. If I had a -spd Tana, I wouldn't be able to say that thanks to the weapon, I'm already back at the neutral spd value, so it's patched up. If you want to patch up a bane, you need either team support, a different skill set or a sacred seal (and/or a weapon refine in some cases).

Your specific point about Tana and redblade is good though.

I agree. If a unit has a bane but their weapon gives +3 of the same stat, the sorry but that unit is still trash lmao. Would u rather have Summer tana, for instance, with 36, 39, or 42 speed with her weapon?

Same goes for “X bane can be fixed with a seal uwu” like,,, that’s depriving you of a seal slot that could be used for a high arena weight seal like the Smoke seals...

So TLDR if a unit has a bane in one of their important stats they’re pretty much destined to be garbage

The point of fixing it is to make them usable. Saying that a unit is bad because of a bane is an ignorant way of thinking, particularly if a player is free to play. Of course the unit won't be as good as having ideal IVs, but that doesn't mean they're garbage. Making the best of a bad situation is pretty much required in a gacha game and just requires more innovative thinking. Will your Tana with +Res/-Spd be as good as one that's +Spd/-Res? No, it won't. But she'll still kill most if the same units regardless and that's no reason not to use her.

It's pkslowpoke, this way of thinking is pretty standard for them. I've learned to just either ignore it or laugh because someone can't be that ignorant, right?

...Right?

Hi! ^w^

First, I want to say that, yes, you are correct and have a perfect grasp of the most literal sense of the issue. And no one wishes to say that is the wrong way to view things. As to how this issue affects others . . .

Really, it's all about perspective. Some players can get too caught up on the difference of a few points and miss out on using a great unit or their favorite characters. So, using the word "repair" can help alleviate that emotion that this unit is "broken".

Also people forget that there are effective ways around non ideal stats. Okay, maybe your unit isn't as fast as it could be, but it can run Quick Riposte or the appropriate Breaker skill and be just as or more effective than an "ideal" stat build because those options would have never been considered. Also, unless a unit has a Special or Weapon that deals additional damage thanks to having extra spd, you can have "too much" speed.

Finally, some players can also forget about support from other units. I have to admit to being one of them. XD I was disappointed with L! Ryoma at first, but once I started broadening what strategies/skills/units/supports I could use, I found a very effective and fun solution! ^w^ And I would have missed out on that if I hadn't been willing to be open minded about things.

Also, to address the "sacrificing seal slot"; to he honest there's only so many skills on seal atm, and some units don't need what's out there/won't directly or immediately benefit from using one. Or maybe the benefit would be too situational. And that is kind of a good thing. Especially considering how many raw stat seals are available i.e. basic stat seals, initiate stat seals, and squad ace stat seals. I think it's currently possible to have 3 of each kind of stat boosting seal i.e +HP or +Atk etc. Not so with the combo stat boost seals though like + Atk/Res.

TL:DR Sorry for being so long, but mostly the logic behind "repair" is to get people to open up to possibilities with an "appeal to emotion" argument because that person is already feeling bad due to the stigma of having a "broken" unit.

Hope that helps. ^w^ <3

Hi. By bringing the more "human" or emotional aspect to it, you kind of made it easier to understand. It still doesn't make the the "weapon's raw stat increase repairs the bane" thing right, but as long as it makes the certain person feel better after getting screwed over by the game, then yeah, I get it.

The sacred seal thing patching up banes or adding up on boons is a topic for a whole another discussion and sacred seals weren't my intention when starting this discussion, but I generally agree with those points.
Also, there actually might be 4 of each raw single stat upgrade seals when we count the initiate skills, because those squad assault rewards are on their third cycle now, if I'm not mistaken.

Hi again, glad I could help in some way. ^w^ <3

I didn't realize we're drowning in Squad Ace seals already XD I'm still working on getting enough teams to beat those reliably.

Also, don't be afraid to ask if you need help getting build ideas for some of those trickier stat distributions! Sometimes I personally don't like the "popular" builds on a purely subjective basis. XDD I don't have a "logical" reason for some of my decisions, but at least I find them more aesthetically pleasing. I also tend to try to stay with a unit's base kit/unique weapon as much as possible, but again that's just a personal bias. XD It might also relate to that I played a lot of JRPG games and have nostalgia for specialized characters XD

Biggest goal is to have a much fun as possible for everyone! <3 ^w^

Definitely. Dealing with your specific situation to the best of your abilities is definitely fun and rewarding. It reminds me of certain JRPGs as well in regards to their personal strenghts, especially in the older FF games, which played a significant part in my childhood.

I think you hit the bull's eye with that human, psychological aspect of it. I also think it's stupid to "patch" the bane. If it wasn't a bane then the seal or the weapon effect would make that stat rather stellar; there is no fixing a bad IV, only merging it off or making a build that works well for that IV. It's just that people are horrendously bad at accepting that their units don't align exactly with some theoretical paragon, even though that unit will actually function better in some other situations. (I, for example, suggest that +def -res Delthea is good if you want to use her native weapon because with fury she will often survive a single counterattack from DC lances. When will you see a question about +def Delthea here except whining?) It's especially ludicrous when you consider that most of the units that they're asking these questions about aren't even theoretically optimal for any mode of the game, whether arena, AA, or any PvE mode. For arena proper, nothing is theoretically optimal except something like DC Winter Lissa +10 (probably using aether) or L.Hector/M.Grima with +atk and no superbane due to BST-based scoring.

I also think it's pointless to look at the stat bane as a minus rather than just consider what the number ends up being unless you're intending to merge into a different IV at some point. "spd bane B.Cordelia" is somehow devastating, when in fact 35/32 offensive stats is better than neutral Innes if my memory serves. Some banes will pose some serious problems for a unit (ex: -atk Felicia or Caeda) and will render them very inefficient, but in a lot of cases, if people just looked at the raw numbers with no colours, they would probably have very different opinions of these units with IVs which supposedly turn them into trash.

Based on what I hear about arranged marriage, it's the same reason why a lot of people in the Western world who choose their partners end up less happy than those who don't. It's also the same reason why people with disabilities, especially cognitive disabilities, like autism, tend to get shunned, sometimes even by their own families. There's a blisteringly pathological aspect of human nature that refuses to look at what's there for what it is and invest an appropriate amount to develop it into what it can be.

Yea, just questions about IVs are kinda dumb overall imo. It’s just denial for pulling a bad IV unit and they still want a way for their unit to be as optimal as a good IV one. Sure, -atk or -spd isn’t good, but it’s the only one you’ve got, so why ask “are they salvagable?”.