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is the BK the most powerful unit in the game?

With a built in distant counter and high tier speed, isn't the BK the most powerful unit in the game right now?

Asked by chewy1 year 3 months ago

Answers

I won't say that so easily
Though, it is a fact that our Burger King is a top tier unit

Burger King? When did Grangel get released?!

No. He is strong, no doubt, but I don't think he's quite as strong as hyped. I can't right now but later on I'll back up my claims with numbers unless somebody already has. I think Reinhardt is still the king of the meta despite the introduction of the Black Knight.

Do note that I'm not a big fan of Reinhardt. He's boring, cheap, and one-dimensional. His only redeeming quality is that he's from Thracia 776. But he has had more influence on the meta than any other single unit.

Just curious, what do you mean by "cheap"? That he is too powerful to be summonable at 4*?

They probably mean that little to no thinking or strategy is involved in using Reinhardt. He doesn't even need to be placed within a horse team to shine (which isn't difficult in itself anyway - horse teams are currently both the most accessible team to build and the strongest one to play).

Yes, that's what I meant. I also agree with your comments on Cavalry units... Infantry are limited by few type specific buffs, Armor by their one square movement/lack of magic damage/lack of ranged offense, and Fliers by their weakness to an entire weapon type...but Cavalry are only limited by their low arena scoring.

Low arena scoring isn't even that big of an issue when so many cavalry units have legendary weapons

Xander
Camus
Brave Lyn
Leo (lol)
Reinhardt/Olwen
Bruno (WHEN)
Eldigan
Eliwood
Brave Roy

That's true. Fully-merged cavalry teams can rank top 200 in tier 20.

No... By cheap I mean that he takes relatively little effort to use super-effectively; i.e. he dominates carefully constructed units and teams without needing much in the way of tactics or set-up.

Let me put it another way... Reinhardt requires so little effort to dominate that even the AI can use him super-effectively. Very skilled players are running dedicated counters just to counter AI controlled Reinhardt. Hector was a dominant force in the meta pre-inheritance but he didn't require a dedicated Triangle Adept equipped counter.

thisthisthis
Requiring specific counters (most generally narrowed down to a Green with TA, even) limits you to pretty much *needing* to bait him in, otherwise he knocks your pieces one by one, or the other 3 Mov hoard does.

I completely agree. And I must confess that I hold many grudges against Reinhardt until I started using him myself... It's hard to resist his power, which seriously renders cavalry teams overpowered.

Okay! So, first of all, Reinhardt greatest advantages over other units are 1) three squares of movement, 2) access to Dire Thunder, and 3) ATK score of 32-35. These features combine to create a monster who, even before team supports*, can destroy most optimized units unless baited by a dedicated counter and who even the AI can use super-effectively. On some maps a skilled player can outmaneuver an AI controlled Reinhardt...but maps are a random element that can't be relied on.

*Such as dancers, reposition, and cavalry buffs.

Compared that to the Black Knight. What are his remarkable positive features? 1) Armor BST with what is really mid-tier speed in the meta, 2) DC on his legendary weapon, and 3) exclusive access to the most powerful offensive Special in the game. Ah! But he has some negatives too. The most important being...ONE SQUARE MOVEMENT. This cannot be understated. Even with Wings of Mercy he can be easily outplayed by most teams. Tactics win.

You can see this in simple number crunching in the kagero chart damage calculator.

Vanilla Reinhardt hits 63 wins · 22 losses · 87 draws. Mildly optimized Reinhardt (just Deathblow) 107 wins · 17 losses · 48 draws.
Fully optimized Reinhardt (QP Moonbow) 154 wins · 6 losses · 12 draws.
Fully Optimized Reinhardt with Cavalry Buffs 163 wins · 0 losses · 9 draws

Ah, some might argue that Reinhardt is a player phase unit and is completely vulnerable on the defense... But he's already destroyed at least one, maybe two team members with dancer support, and if he has an ally with reposition he's waiting safely for next turn.

Now for the Black Knight...

Vanilla Black Knight 39 wins · 2 losses · 131 draws
Mildly optimized Black Knight (QP seal) 60 wins · 2 losses · 110 draws
Fully optimized Black Knight (Kaihaku's Secret Sauce) 127 wins · 2 losses · 43 draws
Fully optimized Black Knight with Armor Buffs (Kaihaku's Secret Sauce) 163 wins · 1 losses · 8 draws

It's a difference of one loss against the vanilla cast (Est to most people's shock) but these numbers don't really matter because 1) the vanilla cast isn't the meta and 2) AI/mobility isn't accounted in these simple match ups. Tactics can be used to outplay the Black Knight...but Reinhardt requires a dedicated counter on most maps.

You pointed out an often overlooked reason regarding Reinhardt's dominance - 3 movements. I agree that Burger King's biggest weakness is his 1 movement. However, I think most people will pair him with another armor unit, and that either BB or this armor partner will run armor march.

So tell me, what's your special sauce? I'm guessing that it involves Black Luna, Fury/L&D, QR, and Quicken Pulse?

It depends.

For non-merged units, he's definitely ranked top 3 in my list. What makes him OP isn't that his speed is high enough to double opponents, but rather that his speed is high enough to avoid being doubled from most non-merged units (especially since he'll likely receive some goad/hone armor buffs from another armor unit), thereby giving him a pseudo-Wary Fighter. This allows him to run skills like Wrath or QR or Vantage to provide more utility. QR will probably secure the most first round kills among the three. Black Luna, as many have noticed, is what makes him truly overpowered by allowing him to take down tanky reds much more easily and even some blue units with decent bulk. Since he has DC built-in, he can run A-slot skill like Steady Breath to charge up Black Luna in the first counter (with quicken pulse) to deal ridiculous damage. Slap Wrath on him, and he'll be ready to retaliate every turn with Black Luna, which is absurdly powerful.

Now, when he's against +10 units, he'll be doubled by some units, invalidating his pseudo-Wary Fighter. But then again, any unit that cannot one-shot him will be hit by a charged Black Luna, which is in itself very scary. Our dear friend, Reinhardt, may prove to be even more useful now by countering BB.

Now I have to know who you have for Top 1 and 2? I mean, Wrys obviously but who is the other...

Who? I want to see if you can read my mind/soul... xD

It's not lyn and her 3 in game incarnations is it?

Oh my... I'm going to venture Reinhardt and Brave Lyn. I know that you switched over to Brave Ike...but I see him more as a top tier counter to the dominant forces of the meta rather than one himself. I've found Brave Ike to be easily taken down by Lucina or Nino, but he effectively shuts down Reinhardt and Brave Lyn.

Damn, you truly read my mind. Yes, Brave Lyn and Reinhardt are No.1 and No.2 to me, respectively. If Black Knight can ever be merged to +10, he'll probably tie with Reinhardt.

Actually, Black Knight is already No.1 for me. He was my favorite villain in FEH. Power cannot trump favoritism.

I think that goes for me too. Hahah. After Mae is done, the 5* +10 Henry will happen.

God bless my soul and put it to rest.

I have many others, but Henry is first just because of how bad, but lovable he is to me.

It only takes one Hone of his kind to put him at 40 Spd. That, and Fury's almost a really straight-forward choice. That's 43 Spd, and then 44 if you choose to overkill it with a Spd Seal. I'm actually outright considering L&D3 Hanacide + Vantage. I wouldn't mind the beast offense, but it's also a really fair balance to further improve his already-solid durability. And it's not like 38 Spd isn't doubling it's fair amount.

I think L&D is totally viable as it actually makes him more durable by avoiding being doubled significantly. He still has some problem against super fast units, but yeah, that's kinda nitpicking. My only complaint now is that he cannot be readily merged to +10, so there's certainly room for improvement.

I'm planning to run him with Life & Death and my physical wall/healer Gwendolyn is all set with Hone Armor. So yeah. He's going to be a beast with Vantage. Even more so if Hector, with Goad Armor, is also on the scene.

But, despite all of that, I've been a bit disappointed by the results in the damage calculator! Reinhardt he ain't.

You know, I was disappointed at Brave Lyn initially. Her original weapon is good, but it doesn't secure as many kills as I had hoped for. The main reason is simply that Brave Lyn deals physical damages and Reinhardt deals magic damages. There are many more units with high hp and high def than there are with high hp and high res. So yeah, Reinhardt's op-ness also comes from the fact that: 1) high hp and def units usually have low res; and 2) high res units usually have low hp.

What are you talking about. I recall running her with her initial weapon and L&D2 and she was winning like 150 matchups. Don't recall if I estimated Hone or not, but it's ridiculous none the less.

I can't say he's the strongest, but he definitely has the strongest special in the game.

Good point. Before Black Luna, I'd put the Black Knight roughly on par with Hector...his legendary weapon has DC but Hector's has QR2 which shouldn't be undervalued... But that Special definitely kicks him up a few notches.

There's no "most powerful unit" in this game which have triangle stuff.
Is more of "how practical he is in all possible ways".
Just how many role he can fill...

Yea, I agree. If you have multiple roles and play them well, then some able to be the jack of all trades is definitely the meta among this game as of now.

Nah. He's definitely top tier, but it's not like Ike and Ryoma don't already fulfill the criteria you've listed. He also won't be as meta defining as Rein & Lyn already are, and has the detriment of arriving after several methods of handling DC sword lords have been introduced.

By the mere fact he has 1 Mov, I kind of doubt. Having 3 Mov, Atk on your mid 50's WITH range and a brave kind of murders that, if you ask me.

Reinhardt says TBK can (death) blow himself.

On a more serious note, TBK is an extremely powerful unit but requires too much support to be considered the best in the game. Reinhardt and Brave Lyn are just too powerful out of the gate and without the need of a supportive team comp to be eclipsed by him.

Brave Lyn may struggle against the Black Knight. I feel like Burger King isn't gonna let her "have it her way". I think while countering might be pose as an issue, Wings of Mercy and Armor March may give her a run for her money honestly.

I didn't mean that she is a good counter to him. She will probably only do appreciable damage to him via her special. If we were going this purely in matchups, Raven Cecilia would be SS tier since she wrecks Rein and BLyn in player and enemy phase.

My point was more that both BLyn and Reinhardt can be played on virtually any team comp and be effective. TBK needs an armor or mixed armor comp to gain enough movement to be effective (and also to stand a chance in hell against mages). A unit that needs a team built around it is going to struggle to be "the best in the game" in my opinion.

Hahahahahah.
lol no.