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AR def issues

I'm a bit fed up with the defense losses. I don't know if the players are too good or if my setup is poor or I just don't have the kind of units that will defend successfully against this kind of player.

If I've calculated this correctly, you pretty much have to have exactly certain units with exactly certain builds to beat this setup without losing units, and yet people keep showing up with exactly those or winning the gambles when they pick a trap to dive into for galeforce. Or are there actually many ways to break through this setup and I'm just not seeing it?

Asked by Seeker1 week 2 days ago
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Has an issue in that the AI does not consider smoke dagger a debuffing weapon, so if he and Gunnthra both have losses he will not attack first as he needs to. But it's only caused me issues in a few instances.

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well, a single Bephraim or Lhector can pretty much kill saizo, gunthraa, and brainhardt on turn 1 on that bolt tower.
after that is pretty much an easy win.

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B.Ephraim actually needs 60 atk if he's going to one-round Saizo, which is actually not that hard. But not that many people actually have B.Ephraim and many who do didn't give him DC. Also, I've never had a single B.Ephraim visit my keep.

L.Hector pretty much counters all of this, but you basically need to have precisely L.Hector in your raiding party, and part of my design is that if you have exactly one of the few things that can actually tank all three, I'll give you the match. Most people don't show up with L.Hector.

Damn this stupid AI, doesn't know how to use smoke dagger as a debuffer

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well actually any green DC VF armor will pretty much kill those 3 with bonfire.
sheena, chrom, surtr, any hector.
sheena and og hecter need some merges though.

as you said anything that can tank those 3 pretty much insta-win.
but the only thing that can fire powerful special is VF, so there's that.
you might want that HKagero guard dagger, so that he still inflict -7 def/res for gunthraa power, but still pretty much almost guaranteed alive.

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Really? 75 atk plus the 6-point res debuff is 81 atk (if goad cavalry isn't in range), so even if you have 50HP you still need res to limit the base damage to 34. 81 potential damage - 34 base damage = 47 res. Sheena can do it with some merges and distant def; Surtr+10 with a boon and distant def can't get there (but he does have a bit more HP so he would probably survive, barely). Hectors start in the 20s.

And if you don't have 60 atk or a 3CD vengeful (and who does with low spd besides L.Hector? Sheena's probably using aether or at least ignis) Saizo survives so he'll actually hit first. I want to give him the bottled juice but I have to wait for H.Kagero to return. (And then I might not give it to him because Legault might get it lol) But it would be so nice because it blocks galeforcers too...but the only AI analyst I've read doesn't have it on his list of debuffing weapons/skills so it has the same issue as smoke dagger.

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well, the problem with your setup is really on your saizo.
DC VF bonfire armor gonna take out saizo easily.
then after that everything just crumbles.
and most armor not gonna get ployed by your 31 res gunthraa, exp if they have fortify armor.
sheena definitely need some merges to compensate her atk, but her def is top class. so saizo is gonna go to graveyard from her bonfire.
other green armor like surtr, chrom, hector have skyrocket attack, so they dont really have problem.

well it's actually most people problem if they're using aether, when bonfire is a better option for AR, since it can proc every battle.
in arena, you have no choice, because aether have higher points, but in AR, you should strive for 1RKO.

and yeah, I think your saizo is better with Hkagero weapon.
gunthraa will be less powerful, but I believe his survivability will go up significantly.
I am not sure what do you mean by debuffing weapon, etc, but by removing your saizo support skill will make sure that HE is the one that move first, and go first when engaging the enemy.
he dont really need that swap anyway.

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I like your argument for bonfire over aether, but on Sheena I think aether makes sense because she might need it if she's tanking four mages in one turn, which wouldn't be out of the question especially as people start adding 6th members to their defense teams. (As an example, see my lastest reply to Kemosabe where I point out that Sheena with 59 res and 54HP wins against Gunnthra only because of aether. If she bonfires Saizo to death she will die to Gunnthra's double.)

About different daggers, the issue is the AI's prioritization when choosing between attacks. See http://vervefeh.osnac.net/charts.html#chartE and his text guide, which indicates that units considered debuffers or afflictors have priority over units that do more damage. But smoke dagger is not considered a debuffer for some bizarre reason, and Veronica's weapon I frankly don't like in this situation because Gunnthra is going to be panicked from Aversa half the time. Bottled juice I don't know if Verve has tested, but it doesn't appear on the list so best as we know, it's treated like any other weapon which means that if Gunnthra does more damage than Saizo (i.e. 90% of the time) she attacks before Saizo, which ruins the whole point. It actually makes me want to abandon this strategy entirely; it's just that I don't have any wrathful/dazzling staff fodder and I haven't figured out any other strategies which are more threatening.

There's also to consider that some of the OHKOs were a bit marginal, and some of them were necessary. vs M.Grima is a loss if there's not a OHKO; vs Myrrh is almost certainly a loss; vs L.Hector will be a loss; vs Surtr is probably a draw which is good enough for the attacking side. 9 points of atk (because 14 points debuff from bottled juice + 7 direct damage on their res is 9 less than 24 points debuff from smoke dagger + 6 direct damage on their res) is a lot, especially with a pre-charged glimmer. If Saizo dies the debuff still goes off, so if I can take a unit that way I think that's a trade I'm willing to make.

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by Nilla 1 week 2 days ago

I'd plop this little ball of feathers behind that wall in front of hector and let her one round every single ranged unit you've got, and then use veronica and a dancer to break your pots, and palla to break hector.

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Saizo would attack first because he has a draw and the horses just die.

Fae has 46 res at range. Saizo will debuff to 40, and Gunnthra has 51+24 = 75 with a pre-charged glimmer. 35 + glimmer = 51 damage. If you put her right in front of the wall, then Gunnthra is in range of the goad so that's 39 + glimmer = 58 damage.

But even if the goad doesn't work for any reason, her spd is debuffed into the 20s so Gunnthra will easily double.

Someone tried this before my setup was even fully built, no pre-charged glimmer, etc. Probably a nasty surprise how hard Gunnthra hits if smoke dagger activates.

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Especially considering smoke skills activate whether or not the unit that has them attacks, as soon as anything initiates against her, everythings dropping -7 atk.

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So let's give Fae full tactics, which means she's basically at starting stats after the smoke hits. If Gunnthra is in goad range, she has 40 spd so she will still double. If she isn't, you're probably parked where the bolt tower is so Reinhardt has to shove Saizo out of the way, at which point she's in range of the goad and also Saizo's spur.

But if you sit next to my fortress then I think you win. Gunnthra would be short of spd to double, and no OHKO. And obviously Rein can't touch that.

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All I would have to do is park veronica diagonal from fae with her drive spd seal and gunnthra doesnt double, and proceeds to die.

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At that point all i'd have to do is change fae from neutral to +atk -spd and gunnthra dies on the first counter attack, which I could do right now.

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If you go with darting blow, my fae build with +atk oneshots gunnthra on the counter attack, if you stay with fury, my current neutral fae kills gunnthra on the second counter attack.

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It's clever because who plays for OHKO on Fae? So people aren't ready for it (like Gunnthra can't take the hit if she's not using fury). I'm willing to wager on Fae not having +atk or a OHKO because I think it's rare enough that I can afford to lose to it.

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Smoke dagger doesnt affect Fae at all. Just tested it out twice, one where fae counter attacks, one where she doesnt, both times she never received the smoke dagger debuff.

This means gunnthra dies no matter what A skill shes got.

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I don't see glow on Saizo. Is that dagger refined? Old smoke dagger only debuffs units near the target, and only for def and res.

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Oof. For me, Guntrha, Saizo and Rein are easy baits. A fast enough Gronnraven+ user can tank anyone of them if they're parked on the tile above the lamppost. It's easy clean up from there.

The problem is the pillar between the two bolt traps. It's preventing another unit from attacking and perhaps confirming a kill.

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I am not sure which gronnraven are you gonna use, but after getting -6 to all stats from saizo's weapon, I dont think any gronraven tome user can still live gunthraa's double + glimmer and rein double hit.

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Red raven will probably survive Gunnthra because TA nerfs her attack so hard (and your res is probably decent too - I've never seen a red raven mage with less than 30 res), but Reinhardt will massively overkill any red TA.

If you go green raven and you have a win against Gunnthra, Saizo will sweep you, Reinhardt will shove him out of the way, and Gunnthra will hit you with 75 atk plus your res is debuffed 6 points, plus there's a pre-charged glimmer. Even that Fae that Nilla showed nearly gets OHKO'd with full merges and double distant def.

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My M!Grima looks like he could psudo-solo this. Pair up him with L!Tiki to get the buffs and the ally support bonus and let him tank the horses and Saizo. Micaiah would be an issue if there was a chance he couldn't attack first, so I'd throw my own duel DD Micaiah to hard wall your own. Hector having no Armour boots, I'd take my time removing your Aether pots while I lure him else where.

Saizo wouldn't die when he initiates on Grima due to watersweep, but that wouldn't stop me from killing him on PP. You've got a point where people can lure a horse AND Saizo. Might want to close that.

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Wouldn't be one-shot, but pretty close only after Saizo attacks and without Aether. This is a bit of a pain in the ass trying to look at if I'm being honest. I completely understand that multiple photos had to be used, but looking at the defense on my phone would be a hell of a lot easier.

Also being Saizo attacks, Grima's Aether would be able to activate after Gunthraa's attack. Without Aether Grima would be at 4 HP.

Rein would clean up, but again, this is a bit of a pain to look at without making a mistake.

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This simulation still has her on glacies (also, did it account for Ostia's Pulse as well as QP?).

75 atk into 30 res (31 +5 -6) is 45 base damage and glimmer to boot.

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Gah... Trying to do too many things at once. I had it all there and the page refreshed with everything but that(The hell?). Redoing it entirely, Glimmer would OHKO, but again... that's only after Saizo attacks. Gun would have to attack first, then Rein would have to pick up the kill. Any other situation and that gives me the advantage by luring everyone out to where my own units are.

However, because Saizo doesn't get attacked, his priority overwrites the rest of your units because none of them kill without help. I go into the bottom path and avoid death.

Also yes, the original did account for OP.

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If I would change anything, it's that the player playing offense gets the choice of baiting out Saizo or baiting him and then the horses when a unit is debuffed.

You need to limit their own options to force them into a spot they don't want to be in, or can't be in. You've done good with the units, but I would remove that bottom path entirely.

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That's what the shove is for. I accounted for the possibility that smart offense players would try to let Saizo get in everyone else's way, so I gave Reinhardt the option to push him out of the way.

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Are you 100% certain that it'll work out that way? Have you had a defense run where this happens? I could be wrong on this, but Rein's priority should go after Gun's.

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The priority of actions in AI is pre-combat assist, attack, post-combat assist, move. The AI will consider positioning assists for pre-combat (i.e. at least one ally unit still threatens at least one enemy) if there is an ally obstructing the possible attack (see charts A and B in http://vervefeh.osnac.net/charts.html#chartA ).

I tested my own defense and Reinhardt does know how to shove Saizo out of the way. It hasn't happened anytime I got attacked, partially because they tend to position three squares away from Saizo so it wasn't necessary, but I did get the AI to pull off the maneuver.

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Fair enough then.

I'll admit partial defeat. You kill Grima with Gun and I revenge kill with Duel DD Micaiah with Def/Res Tactics, 1 Speed Drive(Doesn't matter) and 2 Attack Drives. Saizo does nothing but debuff and Rein does 7 damage with MB and suicides.

L!Ike takes care of Hector

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Yeah this is the other issue I'm thinking about, that it's good at keep-away but once the AI is in go-mode, it has a hard time getting a second or a third KO, which is what really matters. I spouted a lot of rhetoric against setups that will claim one casualty and then fall apart completely, and I'm not sure I have one that's any better.

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If I can make a suggestion, I'd swap Gunn for a different green mage and put in a fully built Ares with QP. Put him near a damage trap and whenever he gets collateral he'll be in vantage range with bonfire ready to go.

Also it's really late for me, I'm tired and going to head to bed. It was neat seeing someone else's defense that didn't just involve Veronica and a dancer.

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Suggestions welcome, thanks!

I did do that in a previous week actually, with a dancer and pain+ double sb healer with the assist taken off. What ended up happening was that the bolt traps almost never activated, and Ares died to stuff like dazzling staves, full HP Reinhardt (who will straight up tank the special) and once even to HF Micaiah. He also had a tendency to advance into hopelessly underprotected positions even though he had a reposition. Late in the week as I was higher tier, people didn't seem to struggle with it at all. If I go with the Ostia's Pulse setup...I suppose this is doable, but Reinhardt is going to be my only other cavalier. Otherwise cavalry doesn't get pulsed. I'll have another look at this possibility.

I do have to wonder whether I was influencing the kind of units people were using and inducing them to make mistakes because I did get some full wins.

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saizo only attack once because of watersweep, so no aether.
gunthraa will glimmer you for 1.5, dealing 64 damage after saizo debuff.
so yeah grima stand no chance.

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Fair enough, I never use WS and forget that effect, but in the message above, I go in the bottom path and allow Saizo to attack me while the rest of the units cannot.

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by Dan 1 week 2 days ago

I looked at it first thinking it wasn’t bad, and then I remembered smoke dagger, and saw wind sweep. It’s a good setup.

Like Nilla, my Fae is almost exactly identical (but w Steady Breath in A) and is how I would go in. She is truly underrated in Nowi’s shadow. Her Def isn’t naturally good but there are ways around. If we ever had a second summoner support, or a lite version, she would probably be the one of mine to get it.

Moving in my Reinhardt for a strike, and then getting him Repo, and then danced to safety, I am not convinced would work for me. Horse ranged opponents are tough that way.

Your setup is really pretty good, but the price of advanced tier are advanced attackers.

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Fae is almost better in this mode because there are so many cavalry mages and her res is better, and also her colour is better because how many people put SM Eirika in their setup. I'm starting to see setups where I can just throw my Felicia in with 46 spd (hone to 50), 41 res, brazen atk/res seal, and atk smoke, and she will literally tank all 5 of them and glacies them all to death in one turn. It's somewhat of a pity I can't do it because I need their aether structures.

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In the top tiers people are simply better than the AI controlled defenses... I've faced many incredibly designed defenses where I always had some hero ready who could bait and tank favourably (in some cases even against 3 colors at the same time).

All your heroes can be debuffed by Aversa btw.

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