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Null Follow-Up and the Direction of the Game

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This is a LOT to read in one go.
Since I am not someone who cares about arena meta, lemme give my simple thoughts about the skill.

The skill is basicly an anti-armor skill. And it's accually quite simple.
It stops the uses of both players B slot combat skills. And their weapon/seal counterparts.
Sure, things like desperation isn't affected, but the armored skills and QR are more important.

Now, why I think this skill is a great idea. It's because you need a unit to focus on being anti armor. A unit like Bartre or Micaiah usually want to take a skill like quick riptose to cover more ground. That's something you'll give up with this B skill.

I do think the decline of ORKO is a good thing. First the anti special, now this..
I like walls. I love em. So I'm happy with this.

Wait, so are you saying Bartre and Micaiah types should use this skill or QR? Or both?

I'm just giving examples, Micaiah wasn't the best. She would be better off going for QR to combine armor slaying with mage baiting.

What I'm saying is that some units, especially enemy phase units, can benefit from having it. Bartre can get into trouble fighting a some green armor units. So he can use this skill to prevent that. If he's spd+ he would be fast enough to double units like Hector, Ephraim or Grima.

The biggest problem I see with this skill is that it's meant for anti-armor, but most dedicated anti-armor units won't have to deal with a second attack.

So it might be better on a unit that's not using an armor effective weapon.
The skill is very much a defence skill, since it doesn't help you kill something better. It's there to prevent you from getting killed.
But I don't know if someone can use the skills over another one, since it's quite specific.

I went for +atk, slaying hammer+spd, death blow, and axebreaker on Bartre. He won't beat Zelgius, but he has a OHKO against every blue armour I know about and he'll double any green he needs to including wary fighters.

Yeah at least for having thought about it only a little, I agree that it's mainly an anti-armour skill, though it does affect a few specific other units such as Myrrh, L.Marth (binding shield), Flora, etc. The other general use is for initiating into QR tanks, which is something debuffers might need to do.

And I like your point that this skill is defensive. QR tanks are currently quite common, so I think it can be relevant on a lot of units that don't use firesweep/dazzling staff and also don't have so much firepower they one-round anything. If the meta shifts away from QR tanks, which i think is fairly likely, then of course this skill loses some value.

Jeez Seeker. How long did it take you to make this?
I commend you tho. It's more effort than I would ever make into a comment so I appreciate your dedication to talk on this subject.

A few hours.

It's what I do instead of trying to finish the abyssal map without being able to build units because I'm pinching feathers

This skill will be perfect for my Catria (I was planning to go with Guard, but this would be better overall for her).

I feel like debuffers aren't going to be as relevant with this skill as compared to using Sweep skills. In general, I feel like Sweep skills just allow for much safer debuffing against a larger group of units in general, since you don't have to worry about things like Vantage as much from your chip and you can use the debuffs against heroes who you don't have color advantage against. Chill skills are also a pretty potent competition since it's literally a free powerful debuff.

I do agree though that fast tanks definitely seem to benefit the most, or mixed-phase units that rely on speed for follow-ups and defensive value. An example is my Spd/Def Bond Fae, who I'll probably be giving Null Follow-Up to. Right now she'll occasionally lose to a Brave Hector, because of his Bold Fighter giving him insta-Ignis, essentially. This would let my Fae (1) not be followed up on by Bold Fighter, (2) follow-up in return versus things like Great Flame, and (3) have more durability when attacking thanks to the shutdown of Vengeful and QR's follow-ups. They essentially can take advantage of all facets of the skill. Something I think we'll need to consider though is the alternatives in B-Slot.

- Universal: QR3, Breaker, Chill, Dull, Feint, Vantage, Desperation, Sweep, Wings of Mercy, Guard, Renewal, & Link skills
- Armors: Bold/Wary/Vengeful/Special Fighter skills
- Infantry & Armor: Special Spiral, Wrath, & Shield Pulse
- Fliers: Aerobatics and Flier Formation,
Cavalry: N/A

So all the Armor-exclusive skills will be affected by Null, except Special Fighter (which is often run with QR-3 and/or weapon-related skills that enable follow-ups, which indirectly affect it). The Infantry-based skills and Flier skills are unaffected. I think something to notice though is that Null skills will beat these follow-up skills, but that doesn't change how strong forced follow-ups are as a whole. If anything the strongest units will be fast armor units who don't really care. The thing I want to focus on is the options though that Null has to compete with as a B-Slot: the universal skills for on Fliers, and the special-related skills on Infantry and Armored.

Chill, Feint, WoM, and Link skills are essentially all support-based, and can't be compared as much to Null, which is more of a "Duel-based skill" (one focused on improving in-combat matchups). Renewal fills a similar non-duelist role. So the direct dueling competition that the Null skill has are Breaker, QR-3, Dull, Vantage, Sweep, Guard, and Desperation. QR-3 is directly countered by Null, but is still a more preferable option for most slow units. A common combination might be Null used with QR-3 in the seal slot. Dull deals with stat boosting, and has much more limited access. Windsweep also has very limited access, and focuses more on safe engagements. Desperation is mostly for heavy offense units. So the most direct competition for Null is Guard, Vantage, Breaker, Wrath, Special Spiral, and Shield Pulse. The latter three can only be run on infantry and armor.

Fliers will love the Null skill because it helps them avoid retaliation from armors, boosts their enemy phase in the case of bulky units, and is in a slot that wasn't used much regardless. Since it's a question of Vantage, Guard, Null, or Breaker, Null scores higher (presumably) and therefore will probably end up being the main choice for higher arena. Breaker is if a slow unit wants to beat a fast unit with fairly high attack. Guard is for a unit trying to win versus specials. Null is for units trying to win versus follow-ups.

Cavalry units will like it too since they have the same question of Guard, Breaker, Vantage, or Null when trying for a more defensive duelist design.

On Infantry/Armor, Special Spiral, Wrath, and Shield Pulse all deal with special activation, which raises an interesting thought: Null might draw the focus more away from forced follow-ups and back towards speed, but the Specials meta will become almost even more important because these slower units will need their specials ready to ensure KOs now that they can't easily hit twice. Shield Pulse doesn't allow for high-scoring specials though so I'm kind of ducking out of that one now.

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SUMMARY:
- I definitely think mixed-phase units and fast tanks benefit the most from the Null skills. Fliers and Cavalry units will appreciate having a strong and relevant B-Slot option.
- The null skills will probably bring around a more speed-emphasized metagame like you pointed out, which is neat.
- The Null skill is a duelist-type skill that focuses on improving direct matchups, and mainly has competition from Guard, Breaker skills, Vantage, Special Spiral, and Wrath. It's a question of beating faster units (breaker), hitting back ahead (Vantage), or manipulating Special activation (Guard, Spiral, and Wrath). The meta might shift more from Forced Follow-Ups and Specials to Speed and Specials, since now units will need to rely on their specials more to finish off kills because they won't be able to double as much.
- Even with this skill, Fighter skills, Breaker skills, and QR-3 will all be pretty useful still. Not every unit can run Null easily, and Fighter skills will still generally keep their user ahead in the special race. This is especially worth considering due to the low availability of Null right now at all tiers except for the ones who are at the top and will of course be looking at it. So we'll have to see how things will shake out.

I'm just afraid they will stupidly restrict it to Infantry and armors, since they have the most to lose giving up the B slot.

Man that'd suck...

That might not be the worst thing, if you ask me.

Fliers: a lot of them want desperation anyways, and those that are capable of taking some hits can deal with bold fighters using vantage (because the order of attacks becomes vantage strike -> bold fighter's first hit -> natural double which might kill the bold fighter before the forced double). The thing they won't be able to do is initiate into QR tanks that they can't one-round, but with how powerful goad fliers is, I don't expect that to be a common problem.

Cavalry: again, often play very aggressively; ranged units often use desperation; some melee units use desperation; the rest can probably use vantage. Otherwise, renewal can be a fine alternative.

Yeah you went in depth on a part that I only began to touch, and then mainly with respect to "if null follow-up start becoming common in the meta, what will tanks do if they decide to give up QR" and I would say this is a nice move on the part of IS which makes link skills better. Now I'm wondering if I regret not pulling for at least one focus green on that last legendary banner, because I definitely wanted spd tactic fodder and I wouldn't mind a single merge on M.Grima. Every point of atk can count when going for OHKOs.

On infantry slow tanks I think special spiral is one of the stronger alternatives, and specifically with the idea of OHKO. But maybe not in arena, because it's such a rare skill and you would want it on the bonus unit. Special spiral I think is often pretty bad in AA unless you're trying to solo the enemy team. It does absolutely nothing in your first fight, and that might be all a unit will do in an AA battle.

Guard would be for slow tanks. Fast tanks depend on denying follow-ups to avoid specials.

Renewal is an interesting option...it actually makes a lot of sense for longer, more drawn-out battles. I think we might start seeing it more if null follow-up establishes itself in the meta and people stop putting forced doubles everywhere. In the current meta I don't think it can be better than null follow-up because nearly everything is built for ORKOs.

Vantage is one of the skills with the potential to gain prominence in the meta. It provides some degree of protection against stuff like the Sothe I mentioned above, especially if there's a wall or pillar (or sometimes just water or a mountain) between your tank and whoever's firing at you, or if you use steady breath + lightning breath + bonfire and you'll blow up the next trickster who wants to finish you off.

About null follow-up vs windsweep/watersweep, I think it depends a bit on the unit's statline. If you have poor res like Saizo, I think you better stick to watersweep, because you're going to hurt like crazy if you initiate into a dragon with null follow-up. But if you have some bulk like Legault or Jakob, I think you're better off accepting one hit from everyone than getting doubled on one end of the spectrum.

An interesting side thought (which is why I'm posting this in a separate comment) is what weapons would be best with the skill. At a glance, armor-effective weapons would be great. Yet Wo Dao+ and Slaying Edge+ weapons still let the user get a leg up in the Specials race. Hack-O'-Lantern+ fits a similar bill.

Anti armor and Guard weapons are the best, followed by the defensive and debuffers. Wo and slaying don't really gain anything overall, as with them you want to trigger your special before a follow-up anyway (hopefully taking the enemy out).

If vantage weapons become a thing, they might be some of the strongest options. Guard weapons are just really strong in general.

Sir of Coffee pointed out a good reason why anti-armour weapons might actually not be actually that great with this skill, paradoxically (and I fleshed it out a little). It's not so hard to one-round, so this skill maybe isn't so necessary.

The only weapons which I think stand to gain a ton from this skill are daggers, dark breath, and light breath. No need to worry about getting busted by QR anymore, just make sure you stay fast enough.

In fact I wonder how this skill will be used by the community.
This type of skill could be perfect on a legendary weapon or on a A skill to permit more versatile builds.

Of course the meta is full of armor units with fighter skills but there is so many others attractive B skills... NFU isn't the type of skill you could give to any unit. That's why I think the best way to use it correctly is to give it to anti-armor units with good speed such as Nephenee (but inoptimal boost for scoring).

One of my best candidate for this skill will be my +speed L!Tiki :
- good boost for scoring
- boost allies stats when earth season
- magic damages
- 43 speed
(cons : fucking loli, need more dragon dudes please)

Well thank god IS gave M!corrin his dragon form now lol

I'm amused by the fact you say need more dragon dudes while talking about feeding one of those to the lol.

Ironic isn't it ? And it's even worse if I tell you that she is my Sum.Support but the job is done in arena thanks to her. Sadly loli but good unit !

I think you couldn't imagine how amazed I was when they released M!Grima and (infantrywut)Garon...

I actually think +spd L.Tiki is better with special fighter. She will prefer to initiate into most bold fighters, but if she finds herself in a situation where she has to take one on enemy phase, special fighter will block the special so if the bold fighter's name isn't M.Grima or also L.Tiki, she's likely to win.

Not to necro this 3 week old thread, but I only just pulled this skill and am contemplating giving it to someone. You all mention how it stops the guaranteed follow up skills, but I'm surprised you don't mention how it also negates Wary Fighter and Great Flame. Folks that should be doubled, but in the past have prevented it can now be doubled again as Null Follow Up returns us to a pure speed check.

It makes me wonder what the minimum speed a unit has to have to use this skill. Obviously Micaiah is everyone's first thought because of her armor smashing prowess, but could units like Mia utilize it to finish off Myrrh and Surtyr, effectively always doubling every unit in the game.