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Is a 5*+2 Black Knight weighed more/less than unmerged Zelgius?

Answers

since you get additional stats with each merge of the same rarity, they of course add extra score
i believe it adds score equal to the total stats
so +1 gives you +2 score
+2 gives you +4 score
since with each level beyond 40 youll get +2 stats

not sure where you got that

if i am not wrong every merge give just +2 in total 1 for each stat that increase.
BK +2 would be 173 (169+4)
and Zelgius 174
unless you have some seal/skill on BK

BST info from gamepedia

As the others already said, he'll have 1 less overall BST (cause 169+4 = 173) BUT I heard that Arena scoring is weighed in steps of 5 BST, so using a 173 or 174 BST unit is weighed the same. 175 BST would be weighed differently and result in more arena points,tho.

Black Knight will score more (given the same skills) even at +1.

Each point of merge is worth 8 times as much as a point of BST. If you view team arena score as the average of 4 individual team members, each pt of BST is worth 1/2 pt of arena score while each merge number is worth 4 pt.

On top of that, in Tier 20 arena and top 5000 AA, you get a dip in the scores of teams you meet mid-season and a rise towards the last hours of the season. That seems to be the artifact of arena defense teams only drawing from players who have played arena offense for the season with priority to those who recently played. (Otherwise, you would frequently meet teams from previous season with different focus heroes. We never see this.) It would seem that whales tend to do arena last minute.

The complete formula for a 5 star hero is approximately 588.5+BST/2+merge*4+skill SP/60. Given the amount of misinformation present, I suggest you verify the formula for yourself.

p.s. I am just astounded by the level of misinformation for such a simple question. People, ignorance is not bliss. Do some verification yourself before posting an answer just to concur with another answer.

Thanks, this is what I was asking! I know I didn't word it very well so maybe some people got confused with their answers.

All answers thusfar have been wrong, according to this source;

https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/75pf47/arena_score_estimator_a_spreadsheet/

Arena BST are measured in 'brackets' of 5; the cut-off is at 160, 165, 170, etc. So a 169 BST unit is in a different bracket then a 174 unit. However, I also read that every 5 BST is 0,5 score. So the difference in scoring between Black Knight and Zelgius is only 0,5 score.

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/7e9rhr/a_simple_guide_for_summoners_interested_in/

I urge anybody interested in arena scoring and improving their performance to read through both topics, as they are by far the best and most reliable sources I could find in my research. Any and all findings are credited to the authors of those topics, they did an amazing job.

Merges count for +1 score for every merge. So a +2 Black Knight will have a +1,5 score compared to Zelgius+0 without considering anything else.

Do note that added BST from merges ARE NOT included in score. So even though BST for BK goes up to 173 after two merges, that is not inicluded in his scoring.

tl;dr: merging is way more important for arena scoring then BST.

Wow, thanks!
I was looking for such a kind of explanation for some while now.

No problem. You should pay close attention to the example of a team that can stay in tier 20 (keep in mind that due to increase BST the amount of score needed goes up all the time). But a guy managed to get 5000 score with BK, Halloween Jakob, Hector and a 5* starter (Anna, Sharena or Alfonse), zero merges, just fully decked out with high SP skills. He didn't even include high SP skills on all of them.

Yeah, also I found a calculator on reddit that can easily calculate your units score.
I just found out that my Eirika contributes more to my Arena Score than my Stady Breath, Warp Powder, Black Luna, Atk Tactic Zelgius....

You may want to check out my comment before you make any drastic decision on your team.

The most important thing is to test the formulas yourself.

You may want to check out my comment before you make any drastic decision on your team.

The most important thing is to test the formulas yourself.

I should have mentioned that my Eirika is+5 while Zelgius is +0. Also my Eirika has Distant counter.
I use this to calculate my Score:
https://www.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/75pf47/arena_score_estimator_a_spreadsheet/

And there you have it. Distant counter/Close Counter are the two most valuable A-passives, SP wise. And +5 merge is quite a boost.

Yeah, but I was pretty suprised that that outweighs BST boosted Armored BST, a unique B-slot, max SP cost C-slot and unique Special :D
I'm glad tho, since Eirika is my favourite character atm and I can't wait for her Weapon Refinement (which will hopefully realese with the next update since the next update hints at being connected to sacred stones anyways)

The formula in the sheet you used is slightly off for defense score. (The source formula for defense score appears very solid if you check how well their data match with formula.) And again for offense score, something we don't know is in effect. The creator of the formula (not the sheet you used) estimate offense score to be Def Score + 2~14. That is not what I see for myself.

A rough estimate on SP ~ BST ~ Merges relation has been known for a while. 1 merge gets you 4 points. (Remember to average between 4 heroes.) That is for certainty.

Thus, to optimize scoring, using mergible unit is a given. Next is to use a unit with legendary weapon if possible and/or can benefit from Aether/Galeforce if possible. Your Erika may also have dual rally skill. Usually, stacking 1 or 2 extra point just to get to Tier 20 or 3k AA with duel rally skill on units that don't use them are just not worthwhile. But Erika can thrive off dual rally. Otherwise, don't put dual rally skill on just for an extra point. You want to get scores efficiently -- ie. win most of the time without too arduous chess-work.

If your decision from today is to get more merges on your Eirika, that's very good and also a safe decision. But if you change your team composition and change your merge focus because you see small scoring differences from a calculator you just used, you are doing yourself a disservice. When drastic changes are involved, the responsible thing to do is to see if the formula works for you first.

This last bit is solid advice. Where I don't think you always need to test and retest into oblivion, when others have done so plenty of times, you do need to acknowledge the goal you are trying to achieve. This is usually to get in tier 20 and stay there. It is not to struggle to get deathless runs because you built a weak but expensive arena team.

You need to build a core, and you need to build bonus units.

For your core, try to get at least two, but preferably three units that are both strong, easily mergeable (i.e. you have lots of them or can get 'm at 3/4* rarity), have legendary weapons/high SP specials (Black Luna, Ice Mirror, etc) or can benefit from Aether/Galeforce (also 500SP skills). Those core units need to cover eachothers weaknesses. I also advice to make at least one 'bait unit' (for things like Brave Lyn and Reinhard) and one 'sweeper unit' (to be able to take out key units in any fight). Basically, I can run deathless Arena with my core three units, so the fourth one is just bonus.

About bonus units, I have strong and merged 4 star replacements for Sharena that outdo her 5* scoring, so I made Alfonse and Anna into 5-stars (and left Sharena at 4*).

I am writing as an advice for others but as a follow-up to Cygnus's reply. So I will add it here.

Regarding testing, the current issue is a) the calculator is slight off from its source formula & b) in any case we don't know how offense scores work yet. Cygnus, if you simply check the scores for your own team, you should see yourself that the very calculator you link is not working precisely. Testing once is different from "testing to oblivion".

Regarding team-building, the easier way is to assume you are going to have a bonus unit somehow but that unit is not heavily invested. As such, not only you need a good core team of 3 for scoring (not an issue for just staying in Tier 20 and top 3k AA), but you also ONLY have 3 meaningful teammate. The last one is likely just a movement assistor or rally bot.

To actually win consistently, you *have to* have a DC (distant counter) unit. That is preferably a Lyn counter. Basically either dragon or armor mage/archer. (Other options require many more merges for scoring.) You should also have a Reinhardt counter. Beyond that, you want to preferably have a player phase unit. ie. if you run an armor trio, it's nice to have Bold Fighter Jakob or Lissa/Chrom with brave weapon AND armor march; if you don't run armor trio, you likely want Ayra or Hana or maybe Erika. Ayra is actually really good for scoring. You don't need a lot of merges to make her score.

Thanks for giving advice here :-)
I'll probably prefer Eirika over Zelgius again when my Mixed Team/ Warp Powder Hype has clung off.
For this season I'll definitely stick with Zelgius since he's a Bonus Unit.
But next season I'll probably go on using Eirika again. Also, I'll try to merge her up even further, unfortunately I wasn't able to get any more 4* copies of her when pulling for Zelgius... I always try to pull for a unit in which's colour pool I also need something else that is at 4* rarity.
Also, since I've just learned that Sword Breaker has less SP cost than QR, I'll probably use some feathers to put QR on Eirika instead of SB. Her C-slot will probably remain SP-cost inefficient with Hone Spd, since it's just too good to buff all 4 stats with a single character. But maybe Eirika will be lucky enough to get a refinement on her weapon that buffs other stats, too.
Maybe I'll put Aether on her, since I get the feeling that Moonbow doesn't do much onher anyways, so why not push her arena value a little further?

As for my other Chacarters I usually use in Arena: Valter will finally get another copy! Mine is +2 currently and another merge will do him good since the calculator says with my current build he reaches 712,6 individual score (my Eirika has 718,4 which isn't that much more!). Since I gave him Guidance, he's pretty useful in mixed Teams that I really like to run recently.

As for the green slot I can't decide on whether to use B!Ike or Hector. My W!Chrom with his Bold Fighter/ Brave Build just really NEEDS Armored March which only my Amelia and Effie have whom I can't squeeze into the same Team as Eirika and Valter. So I have to use either a Hector that is currently +1 with 2 extra copies still lying around for fodder purpouses that I could see myself merging into the +1 version since Wary Fighter +QR seal seems pretty good as of right now. My B!Ike is +0 which according to the spreadsheet is worth less points than Hector. But idk, not a big fan of Armoured unit without Armored March, I mean I do have Guidance on Valter, but in many cases that's not enough to maneuver amored units. Zelgius' advantage here was that he has Warp powder to teleport to other allies in addition to Guidance.

As for the last slot I need a ranged unit. Definitely. Preferably a magic user, because otherwise I'd have no magic at all. I don't really know who I should put here, since Arvis doesn't seem to account for much arena score and Lute doesn't have any merges yet. Maybe I'll put Lyon once he's released depending on his stats and skills. Otherwise I could pull the cheesy 4*+10 Nino & Eirika combo.

And yep, I'm a huge Sacred Stones fanboy :D

Well... shouldn't the calculator (and all the formulas referenced in this thread) tell you that the difference between QR3 and Swordbreaker 3 is minimal? How fast is your Erika? If her speed is already like 44 -- a rough guess of mine -- swordbreaker is objectively better. As for her score, she should be in the 720s with 5 merges.

Zelgius is nice for his DC and Warp Powder. But ya, he requires way too many orbs to make work. Myself, I really like him as a character from Radiant Dawn and I really want to use him. But I can't.

Valter is a pretty un-competitive choice. Lol. If you really want to use him, maybe try defense team (and not offense)?

And ya, the Brave Axe Chrom is only useful with Armor March. B!Ike does score less than Hector assuming the same special. But Ike should catch up with his native Aether, which is not as strong as Ignis or Bonfire but is also not useless like it would be on other units without SB.

I wouldn't count on having a 4th teammate.

B!Ike has much less score compared to a +3 Hector accrding to the Spreadsheet, but the sheet could simply be wrong (even though I don't think that it would make a mistake of about 8 points).

Concerning Valter, I really like him as a unit in FEH, since he provides mobility for my Team and has a native +3 (soon) which is more than I could initially merge most other Blue Fliers up right now. I could see myself swapping him out for a heavy merged Cordelia or something once I have the resources, to make the Team a bit more offensive-oriented.

EDIT: Those are the units and their current builds as of right now. Deflect Magic isn't fully upgraded yet, which is why Hector has DD3 Seal. I had to Summoner Support Eirika anew, since I had someone else Supported temporarily...which was a mistake.

If you have a +3 Hector, the Hector will score a lot more. Just remember to average the heroes. So the sheet (and me too) would suggest each merge give 4 pts. That is true when you consider that 4 pts will be averaged across 4 characters to give 1 pt at the end. It would be misleading if you ignore the averaging part.

(The sheet mainly gives lower score than actual. But it is either fully accurate or not far from it when it comes to relative differences between heroes.)

For reference, I have like 7 Hectors and I only ever plan to merge 1. (unless I get more ofc. I wasn't playing during the two hero fests.) +3 Hector won't do you that much good, while DC can be really useful elsewhere. For example, Sheena is readily available; a +10 Sheena with DC will get you much better score and combat potential. And if you do that, you still have two more heroes to give DC to and a spare Hector to play with.

The builds all look good. Consider Close Def (3) for Eirika. You have Swordbreaker to double fast sword units. 43 Spd is still insufficient to double +10 Lyn. (And also +10 Nino. But Nino is a OHKO for every red physical unit.) If you worry about getting doubled, give either Nino or Hector Hone Spd 3, which would seem advantageous whether you stack Spd on Eirika. Close Def 3 makes Eirika a lot more durable and also scores more. (The seals seem to score more than either formula would suggest for me, for some reason)

Don't bother upgrading Deflect Magic. With DD3, Hector can fend off Reinhardt already. Get your ploys (it's actually useful to run double Panic Ploy), get your CD3, get your QR3. And there are still other important seals. Deflect Magic is very low down the list.

Alright, Eirika once had CD3 on her, but I used it on another unit I think, but I'll put it back on her.
I'll put Hone Spd on Nino then, since she'll stick around Eirika most of the time anyways. I could swap Hector for Amelia, B!Ike, Minerva+1 (refined), Michalis (not refined) or W!Chrom+2. But as we already discussed, W!Chrom is not a good idea to run without Armored March.

Thank you for pointing out that DM3 is not worth bothering with, since that would have been the next Seal I'd have upgraded :D
I have already upgraded Panic Ploy, Heavy Blade, Attack, Speed, CD, DD, QR, Attack Ploy and Guidance to level 3. Next up will be Def Ploy then probably.

I was just editing in the scoring part for Hector. At +1 merge, Hector should score more, although not by much. I would just use whichever of hero that wins more. Since you have Guidance, Hector seems to help you more by countering Reinhardt. And since you have Panic Ploy, it probably makes more sense to put that on Hector and give Eirika DD3.

I think you need +Res IV on Hector at +1 merge though. He also doesn't receive multiple buffs unlike in an armor team. So DD may still be necessary on Hector. Use the kagero calculator to be sure. Remember to lower Reinhardt's cooldown and give him Hone Cav buffs.

Since my Hector is +Def -Res he wouldn't survive a fully buffed +4 Reinhardt. I'd have to use another version of him, my alternatives are +HP -Spd and +Def -Res (again)... So I'd have to merge my current Hector into the +HP -Spd version, but by doing so he would survive a fully buffed +10 Reinhardt.

EDIT: Just ran the clac's again for my +0 Amelia (+Atk -Res) and even though she's -Res, she can tank a +10 fully buffed Reinhardt and even kill him while surviving with 1 HP, assuming she has QR and the DD3 seal. She already has DC and a refined weapon btw.

Just tried the formula you linked. Scores don't fit with my lineup.

(I actually use an older version of the formula from the same sheet you linked which is in turn from a different redditor, and it is still working.)

EDIT: The formula linked is precise for defense team scores (for opponents). The team scores you see yourself is slightly different.

Thanks for the detailed answer! Wasn't sure if I was conveying the question right but this is definitely what I was asking, thanks.

Where do you get a 3rd black knight? Did I miss something?

You can purchase 12 orbs + 12 stamina potions + 12 Light's Blessing's + 1 5* BK for 4 Dollar or something starting today

Wow thanks for all the answers, I knew merges added extra score but didn't realise that much. Good to know. Thanks!